DK: DW Discussion -Outdated-

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DK: DW Discussion -Outdated-

Post by Caen » Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:52 am

There's a lot of new information not only from PTR but from parses within the current build of the game DK:DW is putting up sick numbers. 2H is also capable, but seems to be limited by scaling.

A lot of people have asked about DW, builds to use, what to shoot for and so forth. I'm still learning a helluva lot myself, I can say you will need a good amount of hit and STR [For AP purposes].

-

There are 3 specs that are currently very good, this one will get a lot better next patch with HB off CD:
[0/44/27] [This will be next patch]
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jZG0exhx ... fM0hxskx0o

[0/32/39]
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jZG0ex0x ... hxckxcq0Ro

[0/20/51/]
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jZG0eb0xZfM0hxfkxcRMfkht

Here is a post regarding thoughts from someone else doing thorough testing like yours truly:

+Originally Posted by Orlgin+
We don't even have a consensus on the best build yet. The top DPS numbers came from a deep unholy build (0/20/51) and a semi-deep unholy build (0/32/39). The build that looks very promising with the new changes is (0/44/27). Here's a breakdown of strengths/weaknesses of each one:

0/20/51 is the spell damage build. It uses primarily Icy Touch and Death Coil. It has the durable pets, the hardest hitting Icy Touch, the hardest hitting Death Coil, and works best with a Fast/Fast setup to maximize Blood Caked Blade damage. It also has a harder hitting Plague Strike. It also has Unholy Blight which is a nice DPS talent that also can double as more AoE as a runic ability.The best build likely won't have desecration as most Unholy DKs agree it's not worth the points and can kill you (you can't avoid fire you can't see). This works best if you have an enhance shammy in your raid and time your gargoyle for the Bloodlust. You get the haste and AP bonuses and you provide the Ebon Plaguebringer debuff and Unholy Aura to your raid. This one has posted the best DPS report of all builds. It's biggest weakness is the lack of Howling Blast.

0/32/39 is also a spell damage build. It uses Howling Blast, Icy Touch, and Death Coil. It has durable pets as well. It deals less damage with the Icy Touchs, Plague Strikes, and Blood Strikes but deals more damage when it can Howling Blast. This build brings the Icy Talon raid contribution that 0/20/51 lacks as well as more personal haste. More haste means more Blood Caked Blade procs and more Killing Machine procs. It uses Fast/Fast as well. This one has a solid record and is pretty good for AoE damage once the patch hits and Howling Blast gets no cooldown. This build has a number of supporters who regularly post numbers in the 5k-6k range.

0/44/27 is a Frost Strike build. It uses Howling Blast, Icy Touch, and Frost Strike. It gets the pets but they are not durable. This one has the hardest hitting Blood Strikes and Howling Blasts. Unlike the other two builds, this version gets two diseases which lowers the damage output of Blood Caked Blade. It also requires slow/fast which lowers it further. However, it's strength is quality of GCDs. Because of Frost Strike's lower cost (upcoming changes) and higher damage, this build is looking very strong when the changes hit. However, for bosses that like to AoE, your pet contributions may be very low. If your raid doesn't have a shammy but does have a Unholy Tank, this build is very good. If the boss pops your pets like a shooting gallery, you will cry bitter tears as they are easily 15%+ of your total damage output.

My personal favorite is now leaning deep unholy at 0/20/51. I'm looking at the numbers to see if a 0/18/53 would be better (remove two points in Killing Machine for 2 pts in Wandering Plague). It scales really nicely. It can use haste to lower the GCD time on it's spells so it can squeeze more moves out of Blood Presence. It has nice AoE potential with Unholy Blight and Wandering Plague as well as a harder hitting Death N Decay. Having Icy Touchs that hit like Howling Blasts on single targets is very nice as well as the harder hitting Death Coils. Depending on your latency, this build can come out a clear winner if you manage the haste to do a 7 move rotation in Blood Presence in 10 seconds.
-

Personally, I found best results with 0/32/39 in UH Presence, this was due to 2 things:

1) Unbeknown to me, UH Presence attributes 15% extra haste to your ghoul, as well as any more haste you have on gear. Ghoul does NOT gain any effect from BP.

Ghoul also has gains from STR [Not including talents] and hit, thus making STR an even better stat than before.

Gargoyle is also affected, making it even better than before. This also works with things like Bloodlust, making their cast time a good bit faster thus having more hits in the minute time frame.

2) DKs are known to be very GCD starved, trying rotations in BP can be difficult to keep in check compared to the same rotation [and them some] in UH presence including DC dump, especially if you get dodged or the target moves away.

-

Here's a few things I've noticed, STR scales unbelievably well, there is a point where you get your AP to that starts to skyrocket your DPS [Due to STR aiding everything you are doing: Pets, attacks, spells, HB, ect.]

There is a threshold roughly around 4200 AP going beyond that [With raid buffs, consumables ect] makes your output damage get hefty fast. The more AP the more ridiculous it gets.

I've tinkered with the 0/32/39 spec a bit moving some points around and have been parsing numbers on the Ebon Hold target dummy, as it is the only target dummy not near other dummies to take away from accurate testing. [I think!]

Right now I'm averaging 3200-3500 DPS sustained, and could push higher if I time Gargoyle + trinket procs + crusader procs, but that's a bit too much RNG to deal with to be reliable. This is with Horn, Ghoul and Gargoyle, using ERW and Blood tap when available. No consumables, no outside buffs.

Army of the Dead adds ~150 for 45 seconds, this makes NotD a bit better than I thought, I assumed NotD even 1 point was enough, in case ghoul jumps off the deep end and you need to summon another in a pinch. With 2 pts ghoul is easy to get back super fast [Saph] and Army comes up in roughly 10 mins, so about every boss fight it is available.

With the next patch they [Ghoul and Graggle.] get a nice buff reducing all AOE damage done to it by 70% with 2 pts.

-

Things I would like to try,

I'm going to try to get the STR Darkmoon trinket:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=42987

This trinket has a ~35% proc rate/45s ICD and procs off everything [DoTs, Hots, melee specials, bandages, ect.]

Getting 390 Str from one trinket, with a 45s ICD would be madness. I have a strange feeling this is getting nerfed though.

Next is obtaining 2x Hailstorms from Malygos 10, the only reasonable upgrades to what I have now. Strangely enough Last Laugh is better by parsed events but has defense on it, I wouldn't think of taking this over a tank. :p

I'd like to see a Blood DK with Hysteria macro'd to me to see if it affects Gargoyle and Ghoul, even then it would be a ridiculous increase with raid buffs. Tricks of the trade might even work in conjunction with that, stacking.

So then theoretically, if I got full raid buffed, flask, feast, hysteria, TotT, haste pot, STR trinket + Mirror procced + Fallen crusader/5x Razorice procced floating almost 8-9K AP with a blood lust in UP popping Gargoyle, 5x HB with ERW.

Yeah. Sweet Titties.

Food for thought.
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Re: DK: DW Discussion

Post by squishee » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:14 pm

your makin me want to go DW now dammit...
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Re: DK: DW Discussion

Post by Lutheion » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:23 pm

Out of curiosity at what point does DW scale better than 2h? Which level of weapons are we looking at? I've been eye balling the concept and thought back when I initially read some thoughts that it could be like a fury warrior on crack.
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Re: DK: DW Discussion

Post by Jemba » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:36 pm

See Im ahead of the curve, ive always had a feeling DW would be better. I just guessed the wrong spec.

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Re: DK: DW Discussion

Post by Lutheion » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:43 pm

Jemba wrote:See Im ahead of the curve, ive always had a feeling DW would be better. I just guessed the wrong spec.
You're just special Jemba. It does appear that with proper weapons DW would have been much better DPS.
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Re: DK: DW Discussion

Post by Klysmo » Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:47 pm

Did u try the deep UH build they were talking about? They said that was wielding the best results so far. Just curious to what kind of numbers that can produce. I don't have the weapons nor the dps gear to accurately assess that spec. Also, it seems that no matter what DW spec you choose to use, once you're hit capped it's all Str from there, right?
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Re: DK: DW Discussion

Post by Caen » Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:07 am

See, there is no confirmation on which is best, and I have tried them all multiple times. On both PTR and live.

The 0/20/51 spec I think your referring to is ok on live, but it is getting nerfed next patch with the KM going to a ppm style and Gargoyle getting nerfed. It doesnt have HB so doesnt share that likeness, and it does not have scourge strike.

At that point your better off going 2H.

The DW specs that come into play that I see are still viable are the following:

0/44/27 - DW Frost/UH. I'm still doing tests on this to see if its worth having Garg still or not. There are reports of Gargoyle missing and being delved a massive hit on scaling [Which is expected.] It can still do a lot of damage, but obviously getting the bat pretty hard.

This involves a SLOW MH/FAST OH

This spec fixes hard on FS and HB, has a perma ghoul at disposal, and the rotation is odd atm. I'm working on whether or not its more beneficial to go UH or BP for it, and on paper you'd think BP would win out. Here's the rotation:

Blood Tap -> IT, HB, HB, BS, FS [dump]
HB, HB, BS, IT [dump]

Easy, right? Leave out blood plague/plague strike due to it not offering enough merit per rune rather than have another HB which if it crits [And it does a LOT, still.] for me unbuffed is hitting 10K+.

Problem lies in the Frost Strike Glyph, reduces the FS by 8, meaning youll have more FS at your disposal, horn of winter gives a free 10 RP every 20s with no cost.

This means your constantly battling GCDs and risk running higher than a 20s rotation, which BP needs to be effective.

This is not including Rime, part of the spec, for a free HB at no rune cost.

There's also a theory about haste affecting for more PPM.

The next spec is what I use now on live, 0/32/39

it utilizes a FAST MH/FAST OH

It also relies on HB, has graggle and more goodies down the UH tree, NotD, CF so forth. What is going to bother this spec is the KM change, reducing procs for fast/fast builds. It is still a strong build, but it wont get nearly out of whack as it was on live.

With what I've tried 44/27 I'm leaning on as the better DW spec atm, and I'm putting up pretty gruesome numbers already.
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Re: DK: DW Discussion

Post by Caen » Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:13 am

P.S. People are way too e-peen happy saying xspec is the best atm on EJ. I'm finding EJ to be 90% useless except for AEP values and rotations.

I'm not a great mathematician but I follow logic well and can see how well things scale in the greater picture. But some people just holler "Hey I just did 6K+ on Patch, rub my penis and rub it hardddd." they don't specify that their guild killed Patch in 2'12 or got tricked 9 times or w/e. lol.
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Re: DK: DW Discussion

Post by Klysmo » Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:32 pm

I'm already checking out some possible slow weps for MH with that FS build. I honestly don't like that ability as an RP dump and would much rather use DC for that. Also being in UH presence would be nice. I see the increased damage of HB/IT though with the FS build so in the end that will most likely be the higher dps spec. I assume that the slow/fast weapon combo is due to FS so that makes sense as well. FS always hit reasonably hard even as tank spec with a 2h so that will be interesting to see using 1h weps.
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Re: DK: DW Discussion

Post by Apostasy » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:05 pm

Rylas, could you post your 32/39 Spec please?

I do not theory craft well, I don't understand most of it at all, and I honestly don't know how to articulate what I do while I'm playing.

Things just sorta work for me. Hopefully that doesn't sound as bad as it reads. I just do what seems to be best for the time. I am sure I could improved greatly if i really "got" what some of these guys were talking about but unfortunately, I usually do not...

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Re: DK: DW Discussion

Post by Apostasy » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:51 pm

I do not understand this spec:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jZG0eb0xZfM0hxfkxcRMfkht

1) No Outbreak but has On a Pale Horse?

2) No Dirge but has On A Pale Horse?

3) No Scourge Strike, at all. Ever. Really? On A Pale Horse over SS?

4) One point in Wandering Plague but has On A Pale Horse?

Please don't think I am trying to bust on whoever made this build as i am shit for Theory Craft(tm). I just don't understand some of the choices in the UH tree.

I love, Love, LOVE On A Pale Horse. However, I can't have it as there are certainly better things to up my DPS, and raid performance, over taking something purely for me.

I would probably take a point or two out of Necrosis to get one of the other attractive 2-3 point talents as well.

This is just me, being me, and not knowing wtf I am rambling about. Feel free to bust my balls as to why I'm an idiot...

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Re: DK: DW Discussion

Post by Caen » Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:59 pm

Apostasy wrote:I do not understand this spec:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jZG0eb0xZfM0hxfkxcRMfkht

1) No Outbreak but has On a Pale Horse?

2) No Dirge but has On A Pale Horse?

3) No Scourge Strike, at all. Ever. Really? On A Pale Horse over SS?

4) One point in Wandering Plague but has On A Pale Horse?

Please don't think I am trying to bust on whoever made this build as i am shit for Theory Craft(tm). I just don't understand some of the choices in the UH tree.

I love, Love, LOVE On A Pale Horse. However, I can't have it as there are certainly better things to up my DPS, and raid performance, over taking something purely for me.

I would probably take a point or two out of Necrosis to get one of the other attractive 2-3 point talents as well.

This is just me, being me, and not knowing wtf I am rambling about. Feel free to bust my balls as to why I'm an idiot...
This spec is full of fail, but it isnt because of lack of SS, notice it has KM. KM utilizes only frost spells, this should give you a clue of what is coming with imp icy touch.

Icy touch spam. You go fast/fast with this type of spec, there ARE better talent choices than what that person posted. For instance wandering plague with 1 point, or no desecration. If ebon plague is already brought put 3 points in wandering, another point or 2 in virulence.

This spec is based on every frost rune or death rune being an icy touch due to such high KM procs atm with 2 fast weapons.

It does do a lot of damage and has a ton of RP due to the IT glyph, so you can use UB and DC in sequence. The UH runes are for plague strikes.

Kind of a lameo spec that is getting the nerf bat next patch. GC said yesterday that something wasn't right with KM and the amount of procs its giving. KM is still giving too many procs with fast/fast. Expect anything relating to fast/fast getting nerfed.

As for my current spec, same situation:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jZG0ex0x ... hxckxcq0co

I've tried both 3/3 CF, or 2/2 NotD:1/3 CF. 3/3 CF will do more DPS and NotD will just make sure you have a ghoul available and AotD available for almost every fight. Next patch it provides some survivability.

It can go both ways here in terms of which is better. Having army up for every boss is amazingly underrated. The ghouls do 75K by themselves on top of everything else your doing. I'm not sure exactly how their scaling is but its a good advantage [Though not on KT, they can get tombed and kill melee.].

This spec actually gets buffed next patch with the current changes, but they are looking to neuter fast/fast so we'll see how it goes next build. Its bread and butter is using Howling Blast/IT with insane KM procs. Next patch KM CD is removed.
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